Curse

Haggis of Doom · May 07, 2010, 03:55 AM // 03:55

I know warriors should be killing stuff, not tanking them. However, I'd much rather the monsters hit my warrior than my squishies. Besides, if monsters are all mobbing around me, I'm sure I can squeeze MoP on Master of Whispers

All I know about aggro is:
- Running in first helps a lot;
- Monsters like to hit stuff with less hp;
- Monsters like to hit stuff with less armor (though even when shouting "SY!" like a madman I don't see any monster targeting me).

Is any of the above untrue? (especially the armor part) Are there more advanced techniques?

I mostly play h/h, and sometimes h/h with a friend (so 2 human players).

Please help ^^

**Marty Silverblade** · May 07, 2010, 04:11 AM // 04:11

All of those things you've listed are indeed factors in determining aggro. There are others, including how fast you're moving, how fast the foes are moving, and how fast the other potential targets are moving. It's generally hard to justify a snare so I don't bother with this (especially since things move faster in HM anyway).

Anyway, balling is easy if you pull them around a corner. That way even if they decide that they want to attack something else, you've got them partially blocked off and it'll take them more effort to move around you. Usually it's so much effort that they'll just go back to hitting you. I'll try to find a pic to demonstrate this.

EDIT: Here it is: http://img100.imageshack.us/i/gw048.jpg/

Anime Divine · May 07, 2010, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Yep learn to block at walls corners are usually best but if thres no corner a wall is good. And if theres no wall
And they run pas you. Do the same and go straight for the monk. This doesnt work big groups tough. But sometimes is best in hm.
Think about it if you go after anything else than the monk and the monk keeps healing you lose precious time while the enemy destroy your team.
This aplys to Hm since nm its pretty easy to kill even with 3 monks around.

So again what happens , no wall/corner charge into group alone take initial spike damage. Would help if you have good armor.
Ping the monk your casters will target monk after that deploy the masacre effect. Make sure not to do this with 2 groups.
Otherwise your like any dumb war that rushes and overaggro.

Myotheraccount · May 07, 2010, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Be far away from your PT (Pre-prot yourself first), aggro the mobs, start pulling them along a wall then when you are close enough make a small step to the side or stand at the corner. Mobs will get stuck and your PT can nuke away! Simples.

Oh and keep in mind that mobs flee to your right so hug right walls/corners.

David Wooding · May 07, 2010, 05:41 PM // 17:41

The mobs will be less interested in you if you are gaining health a lot faster than they're damaging you. Even if you're on low health they may switch targets if you're health isn't dropping any further.
I've also noticed they tend to ignore you if you're not really doing much damage to them, if there's other targets in their aggro who are healing or doing huge amounts of damage they're more likely to target them than you.
So make sure no other party members are within the mobs aggro radius, and just incase bring something like whirlwind attack just so you can keep them interested in you.

Spiritz · May 07, 2010, 06:07 PM // 18:07

another factor is the mode , in hm a mob bigger than 3 will split and those who split tend to target other team members which can get very annoying.Good bodyblocking near a wall can help a lot.

tipiak · May 10, 2010, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Never get another party member in the aggro bubble of your ennemies. Never cast a spell on the tank if he's already in the aggro of the ennemies. If you want to ball mobs, you'll have to watch for their attack range : melee, casters, paragons and rangers all have another attack range. Watch for the ground's height differences too. Try to stack them using walls as said before. Never use speed boost in NM and never over 25% in HM : some of them won't follow.

Snorph · May 10, 2010, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Whats the general tank toon in GW? Is it warriors?

Winterclaw · May 10, 2010, 10:50 PM // 22:50

600 monks. 55/105 monks. 330 rits (I think). Used to be SF sassies as well. Some earth el builds used to be good.

Warriors can tank but it's generally considered a waste for them to do so since they are best at DPS.

**Marty Silverblade** · May 11, 2010, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snorph

Whats the general tank toon in GW? Is it warriors?

Tanking is a waste of time in most situations. It's a preconception dragged in from other games. Protective Spirit will essentially turn any character into a tank. Not to mention all the other massively powerful defensive stuff like Communing Spirits and SY. Besides, why bother tanking when you can just 100B/MoP a mob in a few seconds anyway?

Quote:

600 monks. 55/105 monks. 330 rits (I think). Used to be SF sassies as well. Some earth el builds used to be good.

Somewhat disagree. 600 monks have been nerfed for the most part and 55/105 monks aren't used nearly as much. 330 Rits work fine but are more used for solo farming. SF Assassins still have their (newly buffed) magical invincibility button so they still dominate pretty much everything.

Chthon · May 11, 2010, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Monster Aggro Model:

A. Monster re-evaluates potential targets between every action.

B. Monster considers every foe:

Who attacked them or their party members
Who cast a spell on them or their party members
Who is within their aggro range
Who is within aggro range of any of the above (<-- Key point)

C. Monster assigns a score to each potential target under consideration. Score is created by taking each factor, multiplying it by a set weight, and then totaling up all weighted factors. Known factors include:

Travel time to reach attack range (function of proximity, whether potential target is fleeing, and relative speed)
Whether the monster is already currently hitting that target
Armor (suspect that a "satisfice" model is used)
HP (% of MaxHP)
HP (absolute)
Regen (according to wiki, not well tested)
Class? (theorized but not well tested)
Weapon type? (theorized but not well tested)
Probably other things too

D. Monster attempts to attack potential target with the highest score.

D.1. Monster must path-find its way to the target. If it encounters an obstacle, it will attempt to bypass the obstacle by turning left. (<-- Key point) It seems the travel time estimate does not account for obstacles until the obstacle is encountered, at which point it updates.

E. The monster selects which skills to attack with. Weapon set matters to some degree. (Famously, Sapping Nightmares only cast Chaos Storm on people with staves/wands.)

So, how do you exploit the AI to keep aggro?
1. Your allies can keep aggro off of themselves initially by staying out of your aggro bubble while you get the monsters' attention. Tank-n-spank teams (good ones anyway) are meticulous about "spankers" moving in to cast range for one spell, then getting back out. Less gimmicky teams rely on monsters' tendency to stay on a target that they're already hitting.
2. Make yourself an obstacle between the monsters and any other target they could choose. Ideally, you will have a wall on your right (the monsters' left) so that they will run into you, turn left and run into the wall, adjust their "travel time to reach attack range" estimate to infinity, and give up on that target. Corners can be used in a similar manner, presuming both the straight-line and left-turn paths are obstructed. A wall on your left can work to a more limited degree. (Even though the monsters can go around you, the increase to their travel time estimate when they "realize" they have to go around you might make them stay on you instead.)
3. Avoid doing things that will take away your "already getting hit" status -- causing knockdown, AoE flee, low-hp flee, etc.
4. Improve your travel time relative to other potential targets through snares and teammates who kite and pre-kite.

A final note: Now that you know how to keep aggro, a better question is "why should you want to?" With the notable (and degenerate) exception of the huge balls permasins can gather for expedited nuking, tank-n-spank generally does not produce speed gains that exceed the time lost for set-up as compared to other tactics in a team environment; and only does so in a H+H environment if you're willing to dedicate a LOT of effort to micro-managing heroes.

tilpo · May 11, 2010, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A final note: Now that you know how to keep aggro, a better question is "why should you want to?"

Well easy. Some of the builds that require adjacent enemies to deal damage (or to work at least) .

Good examples include Hundred Blades based builds, and my personal favorite, Earth Shaker.

If there is only one guy adjacent to you then you are working significantly less efficient, but if you are surrounded by let's say 6 melee characters, and you perform a Whirlwind Attack while under the effects of Hundred Blades, then you deal 23x6+20= 158 extra base damage to six different enemies.
In the contrary with one guy adjacent you deal 23x1+20 = 43 extra base damage to one guy.

Then you also have the derv's. Their scythe hits op to three adjacent enemies in front of the derv. Furthermore they have skills like Eremite's Attack which deals +9 per adjacent enemy at Scythe Mastery 12/13.

Dealing massive AoE damage puts heavy pressure on the healers which is useful especially in HM. More damage is less energy for the enemy healers. Disabling the healers AND the melee chars makes the healers extremely vulnerable for spiking by your heroes.

Seems important to keep agro to me then...

Chthon · May 12, 2010, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by tilpo

Well easy. Some of the builds that require adjacent enemies to deal damage (or to work at least) .
...
Seems important to keep agro to me then...

1. Keeping aggro on one person is not the only way to keep monsters adjacent to each other. There're a lot of aggro management tactics that aren't tank-n-spank.

2. There's a trade-off between time spent setting up a good pull and block and time gained by killing faster once the monsters are balled. If you set aside degenerate tanks like permasins that can gather dozens of monsters into a ball at once, there very few areas where tank-spank pays off.

3. Please, spend more time reading the forums before you go around explaining simple things like how scythes work to people who have been here for years. I know perfectly well how scythes work, thank you.

4. Regarding Earthshaker in specific: You are not going to keep aggro on you after you KD the monsters, unless you've got them blocked on a corner or wall. Of course, if you've got them blocked on a corner or wall, then you don't need to KD them to keep them in place. Either way, Earthshaker does not mesh with keeping aggro; rather its purpose is to keep monsters in place (and inactive) without needing to keep aggro.

maxxfury · May 12, 2010, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Monster Aggro Model:

..snip..

Thats prob the most concise info ive seen!....not surprised it was you who posted it

helpful is as helpful does!

ill admit i dont usually take all that into account, but i get it done...usually you can get away with stayin out of bubble, a right side wall then not having people been stupid and doin it on a low armour mesmer

Haggis of Doom · May 21, 2010, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Thanks for all the useful info

I started the thread after seeing stuff like "you shall have at least x enemies on adjacent range at all times for Splinter Weapon etc to work their magic if you're half-decent at aggro", but kinda forgot about mentioning this part in the original post.

Shall I conclude that if I am unwilling to ball mobs up (and that I am not running Earth Shaker), I shall forget about aggroing altogether?

Dusk_ · May 21, 2010, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Thanks for all the useful info

I started the thread after seeing stuff like "you shall have at least x enemies on adjacent range at all times for Splinter Weapon etc to work their magic if you're half-decent at aggro", but kinda forgot about mentioning this part in the original post.

Shall I conclude that if I am unwilling to ball mobs up (and that I am not running Earth Shaker), I shall forget about aggroing altogether?

A good Warrior should always know how to effectively control aggro. It's basically what you're there for - taking more hits than the squishier players.

You don't even have to ball enemies (in fact, balling is largely inefficient unless you're running something specific to take advantage of it). Most enemies will cluster by default if they're all targeting you, especially the melee ones.

suparat · Jun 13, 2010, 11:31 AM // 11:31

I found that practising in PRE as a warrior is very useful. Strafe side ways to block their charges to the squishy. hit all of them, so either aoe or hit one then switch target.

If you cannot do this, then target the Monk or the most likely enemy to be annoying or a monk etc.

Supa Rat